How To Debate
Monday, December 11th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
No, I’m not about to teach a class. I’ve noticed — and it’s probably due to how the holidays turn everyone into a beaming ray of sunshine — that people don’t know how to argue their point without lower themselves to name calling.
The dickweeds.
Case in point is a current thread in Hot Doctor Wife’s post whoring herself out to get votes (Kidding, HDW! It’s only because I love) and some of her friends started to debate about her competition in the 2006 Weblog Awards. Then the woman leading the vote right now (and who will probably win) has a fan come onto to HDW’s blog and attacks her friends. No one is going to take her comment seriously because is doing nothing but name calling and questioning things about their lives that she would have no idea about. Plus there was no point in the attack. Her chosen favorite in the category IS WINNING. Why spend the energy?
But I digress…
Over at Scott-O-Rama’s site, he had a plethora of comments about his "The Ten Worst Christmas Songs" post over at Netscape. You can submit stories and blog postings to them for people to vote and comment about. I’ve done it with a couple of my posts that I thought were quite good so more people could read them. Scott responded to those comments in his post "How Dare I!" Here’s an example of some of the comments he received because he posted his opinions of Christmas music:
YOU’RE JUST PLAIN IGNORANT AND STUPID! The Bible warns us about people like you. I just have to add you on my prayer list so your soul will be saved eternal damnation. Your poor mother!
Your a Pathetic fuck, of all the shit going on in the world you have so little in your meaningless existence that you needed to write this.
All of which cracked me up, so I felt compelled to write a comment on his blog which I want to share with you right now:
Wow, such a lot of fuss over some random notes and words put together because someone needed to say something about their feelings about Christmas. That’s the problem with extremists — and I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir (HA! I’m so funny!) — but they can’t accept anyone else’s opinions. Guess what? As William Shatner says on his song “You’ll Have Time”:I hate to be the bearer of bad news
But you’re gonna die
Maybe not today or even next year
But before you know it you’ll be saying
“Is this all there was?
What was all the fuss?
Why did I bother?”I’m sure, Scott, that while you do dislike those songs, the post itself was written with a bit of, shall I say, gaiety?
Oh, one more thing to the people who posted those comments: “you suck ass bitch” and “fuck you and all your BS”, while needing commas and capitalization to make them grammatically correct, are not arguments that will win you any debates. You know — that thing that adults are supposed to do in order to discuss differences.
Here, let me give them an example: “Scott, I have just finished perusing your post ‘The Ten Worst Christmas Song’ and while there are some smelly songs in your list, I feel compelled — NAY — required to take the time to explain to you why I feel you may have been incorrect to include ‘Feliz Navidad’ in your list. First, the song is educational. It teaches children how to Merry Christmas in Spanish thus introducing them to cultures outside there own. Second, the song, while repetitive, is joyous and catchy and can really put you in the holiday spirit. With the triangle keeping the beat and the horn section spewing out a hook that sticks with you for hours, the images the songs gives of world peace and giving presents is as real as the smell of the fruitcake baking in your oven. Third, how can you hate a song with a triangle in it? Scott, I really wish you would give ‘Feliz Navidad’ another chance. Consider it your present to me during this joyous Christmas season.”
See? That’s how to affect change.
Or to be a smartalecky jerk wad ass clown douche bag.
All of this makes me thankful for people who act silly about small things. It’s given this blog more material than anything else. So thank you! And Happy Presents Day!
Listening to: Play The Game - Queen
UPDATE: Since this post had received some notice good, bad or otherwise, I figure I’d get off my butt and finally update it. Hubs was correct to point out that some else started the name calling on HDW’s site (I read them in the wrong order when I went back). That is true; however, that person is not a regular reader of her site, which makes me wonder if it weren’t done on purpose. I said wonder. There is no proof. So that’s cleared up. However, I do stand by my statement that name calling and personal attacks are not the way to convince anyone. As to the point made that this post was inspired by said discussion on HDW’s site — wrong! That credit goes to Scott-O-Rama. This post was to highlight the comment left on his site. It just so happened that the point I was making light of coincided with the nastiness that was starting at Green Apple Martini.
Which leads me to two points: 1) Only if the post is in the ‘rant’ category is it to be taken seriously and then only slightly more. 2) I would request that any nominations this site receives be made by my enemies as I haven’t seen this much bloodshed since I watched the news last night. Of course, this is a good time to announce that I’m currently taking applications for an arch-nemesis.
Now go blog and prosper. But have some fucking holiday cheer, too. Geez!
December 11th, 2006 at 3:32 pm
It’s just so hard to take people with bad grammar seriously.
December 11th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
You said a mouthful, ma’am. Thanks for stopping by the site.
December 11th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Poor grammar, spelling, and punctuation on blogs is oh so reminiscent of traveling in Europe, and discovering that a lot of Americans (and Australians, too) believe that speaking very slowly and loudly in English will enable anyone to understand. All uppercase letters, perverse punctuation, and sporadically correct spelling will not obfuscate the lack of content. And I MEEN THAT!##@
December 11th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
We don’t use dickweed over here. Our language is poorer because of it. The nastiness coming out during the awards has curdled the milk for me somewhat. I just keep reminding myself that every vote cast for me is a vote of appreciation, and that I’ve got a really cool community of people I ‘hang out with’ online. HDW is right to play it cool. x
December 11th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Buckaroo is on your side for getting “Feliz Navidad” removed from the list.
It just might be bumped as I’ve heard a lot of new, and god awful, Christmas music this year.
December 11th, 2006 at 11:15 pm
OK. I’m gonna start out nice. I agree with you about the trolls. They are simply a waste of time.
I went and read the comments over at HDW’s and it was all too familiar. It was HDW’s regulars who started the name calling with “skank” and other general ribbing that was less than fun. If somebody were doing that to me, I’d be proud of my friends for sticking up for me, whether I asked them to or not, and whether I was winning or not. It’s like a gang over at HDW’s and this is one of several reasons I stopped reading Apple Martini. This little episode pretty much solidified my feelings (and would solidify my vote if I ever bothered). It seems to me as if you just jumped on the bandwagon without having given Raymi’s blog a chance.
Raymi writes a really good blog. She also shows her tits. Big fucking deal. Seriously Howard, spend a month reading her blog get to know her style and who she is a little bit. I’m not a big fan of hers but I read several blogs that rave about her. And if your trying to say she’s winning cause she shows her boobs, that’s a bunch of bullshit. There is no shortage of boobs on the internet everybody has easy access to however many pictures of boobs they want. And many of them are better than Raymi’s (I’m willing to bet HDW’s are). 700+ people don’t visit Raymi’s site just cause they want to see boobs. Come on!
And as far as you grammar snobs go: You sound like a bunch of people that have such low esteem that your trying to ride high with gramatical shibboleths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth#Grammatical_shibboleths) . People don’t go around ripping on your math skills or how bad you are with personal relationships (but I suppose you aren’t displaying this on your blog for the world to see either). But people sound like an elitist (and a bit of a priss) when they start trying to knock people down a notch for their grammar and spelling skills.
Then again, I’m a hack with the English language. I misspell profusely (not the word, the adjective), I constantly confuse you’re and your as well as their and there. I suck with grammar. I get made fun of all the time on my blog and don’t take it personally. So, none of you should take this comment personally, I just had to put it out there (I expected a little more from you though Howard).
I a lighter note, You can all go fuck yourselves ;)
December 12th, 2006 at 12:01 am
Man, I don’t know whether to take you seriously or not sometimes, Hubs. I’m sorry to have apparently disappointed you after 350 posts. I’d say that’s a good average.
I have been reading Raymi’s blog actually and haven’t yet formed an opinion which is why I haven’t mentioned anything about that.
And do you think I actually think everyone goes to her site just see her boobs? A hyperbole is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated or extravagant. It may be used due to strong feelings or is used to create a strong impression and is not meant to be taken literally. It’s my favorite comedic device and employ it often especially the grammar joke. I’m not THAT high and mighty to think only prefect people should write the English language. I’m mocking myself as well which I do a lot here. Yes, I believe that one should practice good grammar, but that’s why they say practice.
It’s just strange when people take this site and myself so seriously. Sorry that this post seems to have let you down. Not my intention. My intention for this site is t be a place for enjoyment.
I did; however, enjoy the preemptive ‘fuck you’.
December 12th, 2006 at 12:11 am
Take everything I say and do with a grain of salt Howard. I’m not that serious myself (as you know).
December 12th, 2006 at 12:13 am
Oh, good. I was worried for about an hour.
December 12th, 2006 at 2:04 am
I really have nothing invested in this discussion, other than I heard the name “Raymi” mentioned. So I just have to point out that all the “Raymis” I’ve known in my life (latest count: 4) have been utterly crazy and fucked up. And not in a fun way. If that helps with the voting at all..
December 12th, 2006 at 7:28 am
Hubs: I get it! You were just testing my ability to practice what I preach! I get it now that I’m not worn out after a 14 hour work day!
Leslie: Don’t! You’ll make Hubs test your theory! :)
Hermit: Yes, I don’t like it when people talk down to others simply because of a language barrier. It’s frustrating, yes, but there is no need for the over-the-top manner that some use to try to make themselves understood. Doooo Uuuuu GEEEET meeee?
Andy: I totally stole dickweed from Mystery Science Theater 3000. At least, that’s the place I heard it first.
Scott: Go Buckaroo! Have you heard the Haylie Duff Xmas album? It’s worth buying ten times! (No, I’m joking people. Go out and buy the Aimee Mann holiday album. It actually is good.)
December 12th, 2006 at 9:19 am
Ah, hubs. I’m certainly sorry you feel that way. I’d like to think if you were to vote, you’d consider what I write and what was nominated for and base your decision on this. I don’t know how to take you either.
December 12th, 2006 at 9:28 am
PS But my boobs ARE better. Hands down, baby! Weee!
December 12th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Hubs:
I would just like to point out that the person who first said something on HDW’s blog about Raymi is not a ‘regular.’ This is a person who found HDW through the Weblog Awards.
Beyond that, I’m not really sure how to take you. You’ve made comments on HDW’s blog that have stuck in my craw before, but she told me you were a nice guy, so I let it go. Even when you said unflattering things about me, out of respect for my friend, I said nothing.
But, I will now say this…I believe you are one of those people who likes to make snide comments and when called out on them, you respond with, “Oh, I was just kidding.” Do I agree with all of the comments made about Raymi? No. Am I assuming that everyone who comments on HDW’s blog in support of her has the same opinion? No.
As far as the ‘gang’ thing goes…HDW does have a regular following. I’m a part of it. I have been a part of her blog since Day 1. In fact, I encouraged her to start her blog. That ‘gang’ knew each other before any of us started blogs and support each other beyond just commenting on posts.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Holy shit (oops, can I cuss here, Howard?).
I’m part of the “gang” at Apple Martini and it seems to me that hubs is a bit of a whiny ass. You actually stopped reading HDW because of the “gang” mentality in the comment section? I read HDW because I enjoy her views, her writing style and the fact that she is a damn hottie! The comment section is just that….a damn comment section.
And HOLY mother of GOD, the fact that you sat here and said Raymi “writes a really good blog” just cements in my mind the fact that YOU are the one jumping on the proverbial bandwagon….because you’ve read other blogs that rave about her? If it WEREN’T for the damn titty pics and ass shots, I seriously doubt she’d have the readership she does. Guaranteed.
She shouldn’t belong in the Diarist category…period.
That’s my opinion and I don’t give a shit if anyone agrees with me or not.
December 12th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Cheers to you Howard. Ad Hominem attacks such as those you enumerate boomerang on the individual making them, as they show said person to be completely lacking in the art of discourse and the critical thinking skills that would allow them to describe what is really bothering them. With the use of sophomoric and “common” vernaculars so ubiquitous throughout modern society, it seems that many out there are determined to show-off their diminutive cranial capacity with their pea-shooter phraseology.
The gift of vocabulary is the ability to tell someone that they are a S#^@&^NG BETCH, without really having to stoop to that level.
December 12th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
Howard writes: “…only prefect people should write the English language.” And that my friends, is irony. Another humorous device, and one well-used here. Thanks for making the Hermit smile!
December 13th, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Dude, how did I miss all this drama?? And to think HOW BORED I was at work yesterday, too.
My 2 cents (although this is so far down nobody will read this but you, Howard):
To me,*ALL* blogs strongly resemble high school cliques, gangs, BBF-central, WHATEVER! The so-called Mommyblogs, political blogs, food blogs, personal blogs, denver blogs (heh heh!)…..etc. No one is excepted. Everyone has their “core” comment group of commenters.
And I say this without judgement and to no one in particular but: WHO CARES? THAT’S JUST THE WAY IT FREAKING IS! Lord.
December 13th, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Oh yeah, and although it sounds like it, I just wanted to emphasize that it’s not just Hubs I’m saying that “to no one in particular”, either!
I think it’s kinda sad that a contest that is supposed to celebrate the blogosphere and the talented people in it is drawing out the nastiness that I see above. It seems like total high school, man.
December 13th, 2006 at 2:41 pm
HDW: huh-huh… boobies.
Laurie: it’s okay to curse here. :)
Godwhacker: Good lord, boy! You could kill someone with a vocabulary like that!
Hermit: I’m the anti-Alanis. I’m ironic and don’t even realize it.
Rosie: Group mentality is a scary thing at times. Not necessarily bad as it has helped social animals like humans survive for eons, but like Hubs said he and most of this discussion needs to be taken with a grain of salt otherwise heads will explode with anger and stress.
And this awards thing has really brought the ugly out in many. Just check the forums on the Awards site. Better yet, don’t. Some of it is not nice especially to the poor group of people working their asses off hosting it. Andy at the Spicy Cauldron was soured on his finalist listing a bit after seeing some of the way people were treating each other, which is unfortunate, because he was a living rainbow of happiness the day it was announced — you could hear his happiness in the things he wrote. THAT reaction is what makes notice of something good worth the effort.
And you can call me a hippie all you want, but I actually have respect for everyone who put something here. If for no other reason than they owned up to their opinions and didn’t hide behind anonymity. You are ALL a good bunch of people despite all y’all’s sick and twisted opinions. :)
Damn, I should go join the U.N. if it weren’t already a messed-up organization.
December 13th, 2006 at 7:26 pm
Geez, Hippie.
(and a big fat hug for you and the tree!)
Wheeeeeeeee!
Check your email, btw. Psycho abounds.
December 14th, 2006 at 4:41 pm
A living rainbow of happiness. You should write a poem, Howard. Thank you. I really, really like that phrase. You’ve helped me refocus after becoming quite despondent about the widespread vote rigging, which as I wrote on my blog is disgustingly easy to do and I think there’s evidence of it in almost every category of the awards. It invalidates them completely unless they have some secret way of putting things right. And I don’t think they do.
What it doesn’t invalidate is the intentions of the people honestly voting, and those who went to the trouble of nominating. I’ve learned both horrible things about how people can behave during these awards but I’ve also had some deeply-held convictions reinforced as to what is important to hold onto in your relationships to people, and how to treat others.
As an aside, I went to HDW’s blog and noticed she’d turned comments off on that entry where things turned nasty. None of it was her fault and people forget that. The bad vapours thereon do not give people a ticket to attack her on top of the attacks she’s had in her comments section.
She does not deserve nasty or disparaging comments. Like all of us bloggers the world over, she’s just doing her thing and no doubt enjoying meeting interesting fellow bloggers and site visitors along the way. So I say, let’s just focus on getting our own shit together before we go out of our way to criticise other people on very personal levels.
That’s my contribution to this. These awards mean jack shit and will provide no lasting honour or even permanent increases in site traffic. What does mean a lot is the people who go out of their way to show they appreciate what you write, whether that’s in nominating, voting or just dropping you a line or commenting once in a while.
Respect, love and blessings to all.
Andy x
December 15th, 2006 at 5:36 am
Love the sentiments of the update. We have learned much these past weeks, my friend. Sadly, from noble intentions we are led into the very Fires of Hell and from there draw some very sad conclusions.
Last day of voting. Hoo-bloody-ray! x